Mindfulness Interview III - Jon Kabat-Zinn

 We need to wake up and actually realize what it would mean for us to heal the world for us to take care of all beings the whole interconnected planetary cycles and so self-care oh, you know, I'm thinking of greta tonberg and you know sort of saying like, you know that the the older generations of this, you know, robbed her generation of a future well, what would self-care be on a planetary level what would it be at the level of the UK, what would it be at the level?

Of Europe we need to sort of trust that humans are capable of this kind of transformation and I know the parliament in the UK has a kind of now multi-year history of cultivating mindfulness and in all party parliamentary initiative on mindfulness, this is no joke. I mean mindfulness heartfulness whatever you want to call it, this is not some kind of dime store airy fairy flaky thing that you bring it to your life when everything else is working perfectly this is like the be on and end all of whether the, Human species is going to actually make it I see it in those kinds of terms and the pandemic at the moment is kind of like a prelude or just a kind of horrific as it is a kind of glimpse into the challenges that we face as a human species if we don't.

Take care of what's most important to take care of and that of course is all of us not just me myself hmm and that's what social justice would be that would be what economic justice would be that would what racial that would be what racial justice would actually look like is not forcing it to be one way but to recognize the multiplicity of it and the beauty of that kind of different ways of knowing different ways of being different ways of expressing culture and so forth and and you know, there's a lot of progress going on and that level in the world.

That an action for happiness is a big catalyst of that thank you John I I love that idea of waking up to what really matters and that all that terrible is it's been that this current situation is in some ways a sort of mass global wake-up call and other very personal level.

I think we've seen lots of people reconnecting with loved ones reconnecting with nature reconnecting with a slower post of life a bit more sort of prioritization of the things that matter most and you said very briefly there sort of mindfulness and heartfulness. I love that well. I love both those phrases could you say a little bit more about those two words and how that.

They connect. Each other. Well, as I understand it. All in in most Asian languages. I won't say all but the word from mind interestingly enough and the word for heart are the same word. So in particular in Chinese the word mindfulness is actually made up of the ideogram for now or presence, she looks a little bit like a hat over the idiom for heart which looks a little bit like a four chambered structure.

So now heart is literally figuratively mindfulness in Chinese. So if you're when you hear in English speaking countries, if you hear the word mindfulness, and you're not feeling or intuiting or sensing. Heartfulness at the same time, you're not understanding it because you might very rapidly just acquill equate it to what goes on in the head, you know that it's kind of cognition.

But awareness, which is a synonym for mindfulness is not cognition. It's not conceptualization. It's so it's not a metacognition either we're talking about awareness as its own separate human intelligence equal to if not surpassing thought because your awareness can hold in. E thought any emotion no matter how big no matter how profound you can be aware of it or not.

And so the but we never get much training in awareness or let's make it into a present participle awareness thing but now as you know it the University of Oxford they're doing a very large highly well-funded study by the you, you know by various foundations and the you know to actually investigate training school children in mindfulness over seven year period.

Of time and that data I think is just about to be analyzed at the Oxford mindfulness center. So this is really a way in which when you understand what mindfulness really is, it's no there's no space whatsoever between mindfulness and heartfulness or compassion or kindness. It's like awareness embodied in human fullness and that fullness of course means.

There's no separate self. We're all interconnected and when we understand that then in a sense where the cells of the one body politic and so it makes total sense for the parliament to be in some sense cultivating this kind of wisdom, let's call it and then seeing if there aren't skillful ways to bring it into the society so that we can be much more sort of aware of how to prevent this kind of pandemic in the future or respond to it more effectively rather than reacting to it as we have so much in our country in.

Place. That have actually led to infinitely more death and suffering than would have necessarily been the case. Alright so I think for each of us especially when we take a moment like this to pause and reflect we feel that we'd like to be more present in our own lives we feel that we'd like to be more present in our relationships to others we feel like we like to be able to engage more with many of these societal issues we've already touched on whether it's climate change or racial injustice that we want to engage with those but you use that phrase earlier about autopilot.

So many of us are stuck in a sort of unconscious way of living. It's I think especially when we're feeling under stress and we've got to get the the family situation resolve get the work worry sorted out get the health concern primary focus that we especially. In that sort of fight-or-flight response we tend to sort of narrow our vision and true back into the automatic response.

So how is it possible that maybe especially for someone in this audience who perhaps doesn't have a mindfulness practice that they is already both into their life. How can we begin to wake up more and be less on autopilot especially in these difficult times? Well, you don't have to have a mindfulness practice everybody as far as I know has the capacity for awareness.

And it's the least recognized but most powerful aspect of our being human. So you throw the word meditation now? I think it you know can often cause a lot of problems that unnecessarily just think of it as are you here or are you not here? And are you 100% here or are you like 40% here?

As we like to say sometimes in the US, you know, like pop quiz is it better to have 20% of your marbles 40% of your marbles 60% of your marbles or 100% of your marbles present when the proverbial stuff hits the proverbial fan. And the answer you don't need to go to Oxford or Cambridge to come up with your right answer that as like the more present and awake you are in aware you are in the moment when the proverbial stuff is hitting the proverbial fan, the more you will see different options for how you might respond rather than react.

So this is something that really has kind of a universal capacity and that said, You know that there's no easy shortcuts to this that it is a discipline that it does require a certain kind of willingness to not lose your mind in the minds stream without realizing that. That often is not merely benign when it's daydreaming and so forth.

It could be benign but often the mind stream turns toxic it turns depressive and to depressive rumination and the war will locked up in this pandemic the more that happens the more we get on each other's nerves and the more we get on down on ourselves, it's not just depression but also anxiety.

So we're talking about mental health here and I think there's no question that we're going to see the downstream consequences of this pandemic in terms of mental health for many many. Years. Is but there's no like magical treatment to make it better but when you're willing to meet it yourself and take responsibility for who you really really really are and not just the narrative of how incompetent or how unincapable or how unloved or how whatever is wrong with you is part of your narrative, but do you see like you're awareness is already whole it's already perfect it's it you can't even be improved upon and you already have it it's not something you have to get then.

It's like every in breath literally and metaphorically is a new beginning you could say, okay. I'm not gonna do this in the same way. I'm gonna see how angry I am. I'm not gonna deny it or try to suppress it but but the awareness of my anger I can examine it and say is my awareness actually angry then maybe could I embody that awareness and I say apologize for having harm somebody because I was so short with them, my temper got the better of me apology is really profound and authentic apology for the ways in which.

We harm each other in big ways of little ways that is family satisfying for the person who you know has been the object of our you know, sort of. Harmful actions other speech I love that focus on sort of forgiveness and connection and actually before we turn to the the lovely questions that are coming in just on that topic about our interconnection with the relationships around us.

I guess many of us are at home with loved ones and perhaps, you know, sometimes in those environments it's it's hardest to maintain harmonious relations totally total and you and I expect them before about the importance of listening how does listening play a role in our relationships in our ability to be aware and awake only only it's only everything huh?

In fact everything we've set up to this point is really could be condensed into we're listening to our own minds and hearts. We're really have our ear to the rail and we're listening deeply in a way we usually don't we don't attend. So when we attend then we're already mindful we're already in awareness so notice how it often you think you know, what the other person's gonna say and you interrupt them before you actually let them have even one sense come out of their mouth.

I mean, it's really embarrassing it's it's it's jaw dropping how easily we override each other and over talk each other and don't really listen so to cultivate mindfulness of listening. And and even listening to what comes out of your own mouth and not just the words but the emotion that comes out of it is an anger or sarcasm or whatever it is those those are harmful and if you can actually see that they're causing harm and and the week sometimes might even do it to people we love the most or to our children or whatever because we contracted because we reacted because the stress got too much for us in that moment and then we wind up contributing to harm rather than to happiness to rather well being so this is a kind of yoke.

Say or a martial art where you a flowing martial art where you're actually playing with these kinds of energies not taking any of it personally which is like a big liberatous step to think that's not who I really am and then be who you really are for a moment again apologize if you need to for you know, having you know harmed or done harm by your mission or commission and then like every out breath is a complete closure.

And then the next in breath is like gives us back our life, so every in breath a new beginning every out breath a complete letting go why can't we do that right through the day and then let this breathe in the stress and breathe it out and. Catch that moment where we could react if you did then apologize but if you didn't yet then how about an out of the box response the orthogonal response that might surprise you might respond surprise the other person and you can practice this you can and you'll get about a billion opportunities a day so it's not like you have to you know, be perfect the first hundred million times mm-hmm better with practice, thank you.

I'm gonna come to some of these great questions we've had in the first one is from Jason and it relates to I think something that's on. Lots of our minds at the moment about the kind of divisiveness in in society, whether it's in our politics or when our interpersonal relationships and he's just asked do you have any practical suggestions for using mindfulness skills successfully to navigate sort of interpersonal conflict and politics for example in the workplace but just I guess one way not seeing eye to eye with the people around us.

Yeah you be a center of calmness and stillness and clarity and see what happens to to the workplace because you know, you will find that if you do that we hear this all the time from people who have taken MBS are and then they say, you know people coming up to me at work or in the family and saying what's what's going on with you is there something different going on with you and you don't seem to be so revved up or so on edge or so in attack mode as you used to be, you know, say well, I don't know maybe it's this.

I'm doing or something like that but people often don't recognize that they get more stability they get more calmness they get more perspective and so they're not so reactive at work and and then people can feel it and they don't know what it is, but they're curious because you know the code that's not the only infectious energy on the planet wakefulness happiness kindness compassion, heartfulness mindfulness, they are also infectious because when you are in the presence of somebody, Who is really present and who sees you and you feel that they're seeing you not some narrative about you.

There's no greater gift on the planet. And it's does it's not particular it's not like a then you have to make a big story about like how you know somebody in authority saw me and recognize me because then you're pumping it up a newsletting it but whenever say you see a child and really see that child and not your ideas about that child or even the child's name not only is that child benefit from that and you never have to say anything about it, but you're benefiting from the blessing of the relationship with child energy.

So that's true for all of us under virtually all circumstances and the more again you exercise the muscle the more you'll be able to take it into more challenging circumstances that are really stressful that a really scary that our life and death. And I'm not saying this is kind of some panacea but we need all the tools we can get in this kind of an environment and this is one that actually self-regulates a well-being all the way down to the genetic and chromosomal levels and there's all sorts of epigenetic studies and neuro, you know plasticity studies that let's say that this shift from reactivity to responsivity and from mindlessness to mindfulness, it actually transforms all these circuits and the brain and, In the body that actually fine-tune health and well-being and that includes social interactivity and decision-making too so therefore not just embody but enacted as they speak about in you know, sort of cognitive in cognitive science, you know in action, you know embodied enacted embedded this is the way they're talking about mindfulness now in terms of cognitive neuroscience.

You're you're muted mark I thanks John I think this links into our this next question which I wanted to bring in anyway because it brings up an important topic of guilt, which I think a lot of people feel at different ways is anonymous you think did you say guilt yeah it's yeah this this question has said I've not coping well at the moment and I feel really guilty that I'm not and that I should be able to especially because there were others in a worse situation than me and I can't help them and how can we deal constructively without rather difficult emotion.

Well the first thing would be to not should on yourself. That the guilt is really a very unnecessary and toxic emotion if there's regret again as I was suggesting if there's regret for something that you really did that either by omission or commission didn't come through or transgressed. Recognize it.

Apologize for it and then investigate is my awareness of that action even if I did the action. Is my awareness of that action guilty. You know, and the fact is of course, it's not it's it happened you may need to take responsibility for it but you're much bigger than that so that's what I mean when I say that we're bigger than our narratives but the more we actually own what we regret learn from it, then we won't have like, you know, sort of a a pile of refuse piling up behind us as we continue to you know, navigate the situation, where's the causes more harm than good?

If we. If we decide to actually. Orient our lives so that at least we'll do no harm as in the hypocritical first do no harm that's really hard to do without mindfulness because how would you even know if you're causing harm unless you're tuned in to the downstream consequences of your words or the look on somebody else's face or whatever it is so guilt is just like driving your car with the emergency brake on you do not need that learn from whatever is lingering there realize that a lot of is just thinking and you're probably compounding it making it worse than it is apologize to.

If it's at all possible for anything that you've done and then let this breath be a new beginning and learn from it hmm. And that's part of the meditation practice this is not cognitive therapies this is just pure meditation John on the subject of cognitive therapy that doesn't leave beautifully to this next question from Jen who says I work as a CBT therapist in primary care mental health, it's been a very hard time for us working in mental health attempting to help others with struggling in the pandemic when we're also caught up in this do you have any advice for us as practitioners, how can we help ourselves to manage our own well-being as well as that of our patients, so we don't burn out.

There's no vassal answer to this this is a huge question and I really want to bow to you and honor your giving voice to it. If you're in the midst of a huge amount of toxicity. And you're aware of that and you're trying to use your own being as an instrument to connect with another person who's suffering is greater than your own yes, there are major risks that you'll some of that suffering will accrue to you some of that pain and suffering will occur to you but if you intentionally establish yourself in a space where you feel that coming in you can actually invite it to leave with each outpress so that you become transparent to it, you're not accumulating it you're not.

Taking. In this suffering and the grief of the other person but what you are doing is holding the space and hearing it without denying it at all but when you have six or seven or twenty people that you're going to be seeing in a day. I mean, you have to be able to come home at the end of the day with some modicum of energy left the only way to do that moment by moment allow yourself to be fully present fully transparent but not caught in the emotional turmoil yourself.

But the empathy and the compassion that you give to that you afford to another by virtue of your being can hold that space in a way that doesn't suffer from what is wrongly called compassion fatigue it's never compassion fatigue compassion does not fatigue what fatigue is empathy and that's thought-based so when you get outside or underneath your own thinking about all this stuff and hold it in that kind of open-hearted spaciousness, there's no different from mindfulness.

Or heartfulness. Then you can set yourself the task or early in the morning to see if you can be present all through the day and leave work at the end of the day, no matter how many how much suffering you've experienced. As spacious and as a fresh as when you walked into work now you may not actually be able to have that happen in practice but your intention to at least work with that energy in such a way.

I think you'll find will be profoundly illuminating help you work with your clients more effectively and also not leave you a completely you know exhausted at the end of the day only to have to go in and do it again the next day so then you're, Work itself becomes your meditation practice and the people who are suffering that you're working with they become your teachers actually and you are reciprocal teaching you are reciprocating by being their teacher as well and that's actually the word teacher is the root meaning of the word doctor, so the people who are on the front lines as physicians as doctors a large part of what you can do for people is you're is what you teach them through your being your relationality with the, M under these horrifically stressful conditions am I saying it's easy no let's be clear this is only the hardest work in the world for us human beings.

Steven string two moments of mindfulness and heartfulness together, but the discipline of it is an investment that pays off instantly but also compounds across a lifespan. John it's a beautiful answer and I've got to join you in in offering great gratitude over half of all of us to Jen and others who are working on the front lion dealing with both the physical and mental health challenges that have come up absolutely deep out to all of you out there whoever engaging on that and not on that level and and how nice that you were able in real time to actually connect with us this evening and great.

I'm gonna ask question from which I think any needs are a relatively short answer because I know you've said a bit about this already but it's such an important point could you just say, A bit more about the difference between responding and reacting that's what grants asked. Yeah think of a time in your own life where somebody did something or said something that really really really.

Triggered anger in you. And. Remember what happened as a consequence of that. If that includes a memory of lashing out or trying to harm the other person in any way shape or form through words through actions or whatever. Hold that in awareness at the moment just the scenario of that.

And then ask yourself in this may have happened like two hours ago or five minutes before because it's like, you know happening a lot especially under the stressful conditions we're living in ask yourself. Could this have unfolded differently. Not because of the other person but simply because of how I held it heard it saw it.

Acted in that moment and just take a moment and just. You don't have to build a big scenario but was there any way in which you could have responded with greater wisdom? With greater equanimity with greater clarity. And my guess is that something will arise in your mind that says yes and all that was possible okay well that won't be the last time you get angry or react to a particular kind of outward circumstance the next time it happens, maybe a light bulb will go off in that moment say oh yeah, this is the homework that I got from that program on action for happiness is a perfect moment, okay now.

How much time do I have between my instantaneous impulse to react and something that could actually nuance it in more of a former response and just investigate and don't take it personally but just and again we'll get lots and lots of opportunities for it but that's what I mean by exercising a muscle and then everybody who pisses you off if you don't mind my saying it that way or every situation that brings up grief and fear and loneliness or whatever it is that becomes your ally in.

Reshaping your own constellation of intelligence is to respond rather than react and there's no one right with way to do it, that's no I am not giving you a formula. Every one of us in every moment has to and is profoundly capable of finding our own ways to do this and then life really becomes the meditation teacher and the people who are or the circumstances that are you know problematic we need to honor them as in some sense exactly the prescription band dosage that we need at the moment to grow ourselves into a well-being and some potential for both wisdom and compassion enacted and embodied in the world not merely for.

Ourselves. John that's a lovely example of how to respond to a situation that my trigger difficult response and anger or frustration whatever I can already see as I went back through my own evening interactions with my family and co-workers many opportunities. I had where I could have responded rather than reacting I'd like to just end with a question that is a little bit more inward-looking rather than about a situation perhaps our own internal narrative and crystallas asked have you got any tips on controlling excessive brain chatter or overthinking where in fact the situation is almost our own creation rather than a situation we may be.

Physically oh that's a wonderful question and thank you for asking it as soon as you sit down to meditate whatever tradition your meditating or whatever you mean by the word meditation the first thing you realize when you start to cultivate mindfulness is how mindless we are and that there's this stream of chatter going on in the mind it's thinking thinking thinking virtually constantly it loves the future give lost in the future narratives, it loves the past what's wrong with the you know, who did what the whom was the blame all of that stuff.

We're all wired up that way the consequence of that is that the present moment which is the only one in which we're ever really alive and could ever make a decision to tilt towards response rather than reaction or tilt towards love rather than anger or fear that present moment tends to get hugely squeezed, so the tip would be every time you notice that the mind goes off.

Who's noticing that who is that what is that awareness that you know that your mind was supposed to be here and but it's there so is that awareness actually here or there and you can begin to investigate this for yourself and then discover that it's possible to actually reset your default mode, so to speak so that wakefulness or embodied awareness becomes the place where you reside that's your abode that's your resonance.

And then the mind goes off you're the mine goes up there and you don't take it personally and you begin to realize this is just the like the ocean at the surface it waves the mind is like the ocean at the surface it waves good bad ugly all these thoughts fears everything else down below 20 or 30 fathoms gentle undulations is the same with awareness and if you can come from the gentle undulations, then you can really make a contribution in the world that reduces your own stress, yes, but it actually reduces the stress in the world, you know.

Ormously and it is contagious. I want to just emphasize in a time of epidemic or pandemic that there are good contagions and action for happiness is one instrument for that, you know contagion and mindfulness is you know, a very very powerful. Way of being in relationship with reality that actually is transformative and healing by its very nature.

John thank you for your comments and and what you said about actually happiness and we've we've turned the the chat back on having had a lovely pause as you guided us earlier now everybody and so thank you everyone for all your comments. I as you know, we're really focused on action and I feel moved just to ask our audience to share a response to a question that's been coming up for me while listening to you which is about this idea of responding rather than reacting I'd like to invite the audience to pack share something that you'd like to do to respond to something that's going on for you right now whether that's in your own life and your own self.

Care whether that's in a relationship whether that's in a response to the difficult situation so as we begin to wrap up your session and I will come back to you for some final words in a moment John but I would love to hear people in the chat sharing ways in which you're responding to what's going on for you right now, so take a breath.

I'm one of my savior reach out to other people restart my mindfulness be kind going outside. I saw a few more being one yeah living with more gratitude exercise swimming in the ocean pausing resting having a daily. Diary being in woodland tuning into nature deeply in mindfully listening apologizing to my wife volunteering just living minute by minute a bubble bath and glass of wine hogs walking watching the birds playing music, so I won't read them all at John but what a lovely sense of real human reaction to the idea of responding to life as a as it emerges and and it just a reflection and I guess we can leave it there at this because of course this topic we could go on with forever.

That.

Really want to emphasize that we we really all being human are endowed with remarkable levels of genius. On a lot of different in a lot of different dimensions. And so it's good to actually recognize that who you think you are is that tiniest little fragment of who you actually are what your true nature as you are and to if you're not your name and you're not your age and you're not all the sort of descriptors then who are you into really let that question live inside you and when you do drop into the present moment drop in.

As the fullness of awareness itself and then see how it's embodied in your life and how it's particularized in your life and and and to recognize and remember that as I like to put it in shorthand the world really needs all its flowers. You have a flower behind you I'm seeing right now.

Mark, you know in that frame the world needs all its flowers and every single one of us is one of those flowers and we might think well, we don't count we're not beautiful enough. I like that flower better than this flower. But the fact is that you are the flowering of life on earth.

You didn't ask for it. It's not something that you even understand when it's time to go it will be time to go and there won't be much you can do about it but while you're still here, there's a huge amount that you can do to actually allow that flowering to make a difference in the world through kindness through compassion through love through the multiple intelligences that we can bring to affecting positively the law.

S of others, whether it's your children or grandchildren or school children or you know, other people that you live with or work with and that's how we wind up healing and growing together. John I couldn't think of any more moving and powerful way to end our time together We're out of time and we're all incredibly grateful, I can see so much love respect and gratitude for you on the chat.

Thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you for your all your great work and your wisdom and wishing you all the best and all of you the community thank you for being here and for being part of this very great. Well, thank you Mark and it's it's absolutely a delight to be in conversation with you.

Your contribution to action for happiness into well being in the world is simply huge and and I felt so at home with you. Sort of nurturing our conversation for everybody. Thank you John. Have a great rest of your day. Be well everybody. Bye.